Combat: Round One, FIGHT!

Finjinimo · September 2015

So combat... "Turn-based" and "reminiscent of Pokemon". Ok, cool. I can get behind that wizzie. But without giving too much away, could you give us some clues as to what kind of combat you're thinking?

So first person style turn-based as in "my turn 1, I select 'punch drak in the ear', I miss. Drak turn 1 he selects 'punch finji in delicates', critical hit! much xp!"?

Or are you thinking more rock, paper, scissors type where we both select our moves in a 'planning phase' and then we both see what actually happens in the 'results phase'?

Or is it more like chess, where I have pieces, you have pieces and we move stuff around strategically and or hilariously?

Kjelfalconer · September 2015

I'll add an extra turn varient which isn't so much "You go, I go" as much as "We're on cooldowns. And I'm really fast so I just took 3 turns, bitch."

I always like the last one. It lets you have fun with skills that mess with the times, giving people faster turns, or having that one massive skill that makes your next turn take years to get to, so if you didn't manage to kill them with it, you be screwed.

Darggie · September 2015

Kjelfalconer said:

I'll add an extra turn varient which isn't so much "You go, I go" as much as "We're on cooldowns. And I'm really fast so I just took 3 turns, bitch."

I always like the last one. It lets you have fun with skills that mess with the times, giving people faster turns, or having that one massive skill that makes your next turn take years to get to, so if you didn't manage to kill them with it, you be screwed.

I also enjoy combat where your skills dictate how many attacks you get. If I'd wielding two daggers, in light to no armor, with a character that has a high speed. Fighting a hulking beast in heavy armor wielding a gaudy two handed heavy weapon.

I should, theoretically get more hits per one of his. But I don't know how complex this combat system will be.

Kjelfalconer · September 2015

@Darggie
As a programmer, I can attest not very.

And I know this because I've done it.

TheWizard · September 2015

So I'm getting a lot out of the suggesting and don't want to curtail it, but here's a single detail to explain the reference to Pokemon:

It's turn-based in that things happen in order, but you are making decisions as the same time as your opponent. Once you both commit, then Initiative will determine the order of execution of your awesome abilities/moves/spells/what-have-you (and Initiative will be something to work on, as it will be determined by your Character's Speed, RNG and some other Traits we'll talk about later).

And in this system, we can pull off much of what Kjel and Darggie are talking about, but wanted you to be riffing with that "we both choose, then the game executes" in mind...

(and @Finjinimo, now I suppose we'll have to make an Ability for Drak's move against you in your example)

Finjinimo · September 2015

Ah, so similar to what we were doing in TC but instead of armies we're dancing solo. Gotcha.

And yes, below the belt dirty moves should absolutely be in. If I want to be honorable and virtuous keeping everything above board then great, but if I'm a scrappy brawler fighting tooth and nail with everything thing I've got then I am absolutely going to try to put a boot to your nuts.

TheWizard · September 2015

Haha right-- and to address your other comment about RPS, there will certainly be moves that are better against others and such. We're seeking an Ability system that interacts with the Gear system to provide tons of interesting combinations and synergies so that you'll have a set of assumptions about your opponent as you walk into the Battle, but can surprise anyone with your unique choices and loadout.

Finjinimo · September 2015

Right. So we all have a standard skillset which would let us do your basic attack, charge, defend -- rock, paper scissors type scenario.

But levelling up skills and finding rad equipment augments and unlocks new options making it harder for the opponent to read what we are going to do.

So player skill is about predicting what the opponent is going to do, and lining up our own orders to counter that in a tight turn window -- 10 seconds or something for quick combat yes?

SingmeAsong · September 2015

Finjinimo said:
So player skill is about predicting what the opponent is going to do, and lining up our own orders to counter that in a tight turn window -- 10 seconds or something for quick combat yes?

Yep, we're aiming for fast turns in our combat. Our challenge will be maintaining enough depth of player choice and strategy across these short battles. As @TheWizard alluded to early, we believe your selection of abilities/moves/spells/gear/what-have-you will create interesting situations for you as the player to demonstrate your skill and execute on a variety of strats.

whackapple · October 2015

Finjinimo said:
So player skill is about predicting what the opponent is going to do, and lining up our own orders to counter that in a tight turn window -- 10 seconds or something for quick combat yes?

TC was great for the world, customizing the armies & characters within, and the exploring/opening loot chests features. The combat was fun for being able to select specific actions available to the characters, from the AOE of an ancient's roar to the deadly precision of Thomas/OCs to that one squad of unkillable Order Healers with endless resurrecting ¬_¬. The rock-paper-scissors feel in picking squad actions / guessing opponents' moves I'd just as soon avoid. 'Oh shit I'm taking damage, I need to throw sand in his eyes & run away', is the kind of move countering I think would be fun to have.

SingmeAsong said:
Yep, we're aiming for fast turns in our combat. Our challenge will be maintaining enough depth of player choice and strategy across these short battles. As @TheWizard alluded to early, we believe your selection of abilities/moves/spells/gear/what-have-you will create interesting situations for you as the player to demonstrate your skill and execute on a variety of strats.

Sweeeeet.

Xeru · October 2015

When I think of kinds of Combat, the first thing that comes to mind for combat systems is Suikoden 3. Suikoden 3 had both a PvP, Party Combat, And a War Combat System. The PvP was a Dual, which is ok and is just an example really. PArty of 6v6 which is standard. But the War system I really like is a series of troops were moved and strategically used in a fashion like a chess player, only the chess pieces were unit types and whatnot. As far as other combat types, I'm curious as if there will be a combat option for Sneak attack/assassins/longrange/trapsetting and the sneaky types of combat that I love and enjoy

TheWizard · October 2015

This game is built on a 1v1 character battle design where you're matching wits and skill with your character against another's. Think a concentrated version of what you experience in a MMO, but with Pokemon-style choice-making (you and your opponent make a move/skill/spell choice, then Initiative determines what executes first, then PUNISH, then round 2, etc). And you'll spec your character, gear and skills to fight that Battle the way you want.

And oh yes, @helpicantfly -- the Rogue class is a 1.0 class. I think you'll find things in that Class to like for the type of combat you prefer...

Boomvang · October 2015

Wizzy Poo....Will we be able to see our opponents load out BEFORE we battle? How about being able to change our own load out once the battle starts (in between rounds) to adjust our attack or abilities?

SingmeAsong · October 2015

Boomvang said:

Wizzy Poo....Will we be able to see our opponents load out BEFORE we battle? How about being able to change our own load out once the battle starts (in between rounds) to adjust our attack or abilities?

Right now we're experimenting with what's the best amount of information to give the player Before, During, and After a battle and the methods in which to communicate that information (ie. visual, text, audio) at each of those times. We aren't ruling anything out at this point but we've generally been following the practice of delivering the information we think is essential for players of varying skill ranges to make informed strategic decisions but also having an option for those players interested in the nitty gritty aspects an avenue to get more details on their Stats, Gear, Abilities, Traits, etc.

drglory · October 2015

I think something like an icon that shows "this user uses mostly shadow attacks" and another that says you can expect magic attacks.

Not too much info, like Pokemon

helpicantfly · October 2015

yeah as im sure players are going to share there encounters with npc's and other players .
with tips,tricks ,strategy's for beating or at least giving thema overview of what to expect i would imagine some kind of picture list of who i have fought and brief overview of equip,skills etc.although who really knows.
i would think that house will also be able to provide such info on .but maybe npc evolve as you continue finding fighting them same as you ?

Mrfishyfish · October 2015

You know something that's rather back in the day but is not considered one of the grates but I thought it was rather innovative, was FF8 with a stats bar that can be manipulated by giving it a magic resource that can also depeat and find it hard to get back, but only one kind can be attached to one stat so it limited you to one uber stat and then you had a core you worked on, I thought it was really good, it also allows players to get levels of strength to complete with stronger players

TheWizard · October 2015

Ah yes, I remember that @Mrfishyfish. And I agree FF8 was a bit underrated (hard to follow FF7, certainly). While the combat in Paragons is influenced by the simultaneous turn-based gameplay of something like Pokemon, the interactions between your Character's build, the Character's Traits and the loaded out gear provide a ton of combinations and interesting moves.

What you said about an uber stat is interesting. Our gear system right now is such that you can maximize various boosts to your core stats that will help you in different ways. So I think it's similar. For example, Strength provides the ability to hit and do more damage with martial abilities. Speed gives you an advantage for initiative and the ability to cause an enemy to miss. Our intention is to allow many successful builds of each Class to be competitive (and sometimes surprising) with opponents and to creativity in builds and loadouts.

drglory · October 2015

Part of me misses the old school style of adding negatives to stats as well as positives.

Like characters that were physically large were slower in combat than smaller characters, but had more strength.

Strength adding to to your block, but removing evasion.

you get the idea.

TheWizard · November 2015

so to your point, @drglory, does the fact that our Trait system introduce negatives scratch that itch? For example, "Stubborn" might increase CON or HP, but detract from your SPD. Thoughts?

And is there a thread here for discussing Traits?

drglory · November 2015

@TheWizard I must have missed that one. Let me look!

helpicantfly · November 2015

@drglory i haven't seen one maybe you should start one!!

whackapple · November 2015

Or the discussion continues here... I like how traits are done by Spiderweb Games; pick as many you like and get exp bonus/penalty for it:

Image: http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/459400-avernum-6-windows-screenshot-character-spells-traits.jpg

TheWizard · November 2015

ah yes, @whackapple I like that too. TInkering is good-- that's why the initial idea over here is that respec is unlimited (don't hold me to that, but it's the current thinking. We have to figure out when choices stick and when they don't)

Combat: Round One, FIGHT!

Comments