Let's talk Classes shall we?

Alright, Classes and what makes a class is probably my favorite part of an RPG. And it's most defining quality. Whether it's a character who is obviously that class, or nameless characters and they have classes given, or a class and job system, or a freeclass system, the concept of Class is crucial. @TheWizard has hinted here and there at what bits and pieces will be the core of the system. I think this is a good place to truly get deep into the nuts and bolts of class dynamics, good classes, bad classes, and what classes should branch from where and why, and what skills should go to what classes and what kinds of armor, equipment and special items potentially and ideas for unique kinds of classes and class mechanics.

I will first pitch the primary question towards Wiz of, any idea of how deep, both vertically and horizontally, the class tree for the classes will be anticipated to be, along with the secondary important question of, will a base class path be locked in place or can one venture from a wizard to a warrior path for a set valuable of some sort? Be it it costs a penalty or it costs gold or w/e.

I'm holding back naturally from going into my wealth of ideas but idealistically I'm thinking you already mentioned a 3 branch system. I'm wondering how many tiers you would be willing to vertically go with that and cross map with it. If you are worried about it on a dynamic level, I can solve that easily. Though programming wise is probably where I feel it might be trickier I assume.

Here is where I feel the big conversation on classes as a whole can be opened up and get really nerdy however.

Comments

  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Well, sir-- you do indeed have some ideas about this, so I'll ask you what you're thinking by offering a tidbit of the way that Classes will work (and there's a bit in the Game Dev Update I just posted):

    So as we're designing it, yes, there is a Class structure. You'll choose a Warrior (or Mage, Rogue, etc) and at the beginning will be cookie-cutter like the other Level 1s of your ilk. But you'll choose to develop Stats, Abilities, Traits, Gear and ultimately specialties which will forge you into something else. Spend all your time in the Fortress role, young Warrior? You're a Fortress. But spend across the board amongst base stuff, gear that ups your Speed and some Executioner Abilities and you're something else entirely. We're trying to design for your creativity.

    What do you need to do so?
    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    @TheWizard 

    Ok, here are some things that come to mind. I will number them to make them easy to address lol

    1. First, you mentioned Traits being a sort of equip-able skill og sort. Would this also apply to differing kinds of equip-able. I will reference the FFT system because it's core is my personal favorite and go to. Now in that system, they would have an pair of equip-able actives skills, equip-able passive skills, equip-able reactive skills, and equip-able movement skills. Example, You could Equip on someone, after learning it, Black Magic, And Holy Sword skills for the actives, creating a combination pair of two unique skillsets together. Passive skills ranged from equipping buffs such as regen and reducing mana costs, to the more important equipment skills. So say you level up as a warrior and then learn the skill "equip Heavy Armor" and then you become a mage, but you die a lot. Equip this skill and now you can be a mage who equips heavy armor. Reactive skills such as counter attack and counterspell. and movements skills specific to FFT cause it was a turned based tile RTS type of RPG. So what I'm asking is, how many Trait slots will there be and how many of each kind of Trait slot will there be to mix and match these kinds of shenanigans, in particular Skillset equipping and equipment altering.

    2. Short one. Are players set to only one class tree they select, or is there a chance that say, after reaching a certain point in a tree, they can change from the Warrior tree to the Mage Tree, or whatever one they are to another? If yes, continue to Question 3, if not, go to 4 lol

    3. If There is Class Switching, and you have a branching system, then the next step is Cross class hybrid networking. An example is in order. Let's say you train as an Archer base Class. And you level all the way to Ranger and learn and Master the Pet Tamer skill and the Summon Pet Skill. Now, transition to Mage Tree. Level it to Warlock and Master Blood Magic and Demon Magic. Upon Mastering these 4 skills, a new Class tree opens up: Summoner: Awesome! What does Summoner Class Tree entail: Why it summons! Literally, and it gets unique perks for being a summoner potentially too. Skills like "Triple Summons" and "Legendary Dragon of a not copyrighted name" will make you a serious threat to deal with and lots of fun. Another example? Sure! Since people have been saying Mages get no love, I'll use them again. Level Mage up to Warlock and Master Death Magic, Blood Magic, And Magic Weapon. Now, Take Fortress and Master Equip Heavy Armor, Heavy Armor Master, Equip Blunt Weapon, Blunt Weapon Mastery, and Take Paladin and Master Holy Sword, Equip Shield, Shield Mastery, Absolute Defense. And what to you get? You get a Death Knight! Now, this sounds pretty advance and lots of work, so what does this guy do? Well, alot! He wields the powers of life and death, both physically and magically. He is a standing tank but can deal moderate damage with melee but excels with magic damage. The definition of an Abrahms as he absorbs damage and blasts his foes. And has enough white magics to heal himself of pesky effects. A Top notch class worth the effort of reaching.

    4. Alright, nuts and bolts of the class tiers, I'll use warrior as an example and use a letter to number rotating system to organize it. So let's say this is a 5 tier system on a 3 branch network, it would look like this then. (Names are not perfect #don'tjudge :P )

    Warrior

    a. Executioner

    1. Myrmidon
    a1. Ronin
    A1-Final: Swordmaster

    b1. Samurai
    B1-Final: Muramasa

    c1. Duelist
    C1-Final: Blademaster

    2. Slayer
    a2. Reaper
    A2-Final: Crossroads Demon

    b2. Harbinger
    B2-Final: Vision of Death

    c2. Killer
    C2-Final: Maniac

    3. Mercenary
    a3. Hired Hand
    A3-Final: Bodyguard

    b3. Sellsword
    B3-Final: Blade of Avarice

    c3. Militiaman
    C3-Final: Commander


    b. Fortress

    1. Stalwart
    a1. Powerhouse
    A1-Final: Dauntless

    b1. Indomitable Will
    B1-Final: Immovable Object

    c1. Pillar of Power
    C1-Final:  Mountain


    2. Guardian
    a2.Warden
    A2-Final: Gatekeeper

    b2. Champion
    B2-Final: Grandmaster

    c2.Sentinel
    C2-Final: Watcher

    3. Juggernaut
    a3. Steamroller
    A3-Final: Unstoppable Force

    b3. Assault Commander
    B3-Final: Dragoon

    c3. Tank
    C3-Final: Destroyer



    c. Berserker

    1. Viking
    a1. Pirate
    A1-Final: Corsair

    b1. Huscarl
    B1-Final: Lord

    c1. Shaman
    C1-Final: Ulfheonar

    2. Brawler
    a2. Soldier
    A2-Final: Coat of Arms

    b2. Warchief
    B2-Final: Warlord

    c2. Combatant
    C2-Final: Gladiator

    3. Devourer
    a3. Pillager
    A3-Final: Ravager

    b3. Conquerer
    B3-Final: Annihilator

    c3. Werebeast
    C3-Final: Lycanthrope




    5. Traits and skills equipment system, let's make it match gear with 13 maybe. And I say we do it like this potentially.

    3 Active skill slots for Equipping types of skills
    4 reactive skills
    6 Passive/equip skills


    6. if there is a class switching system, will leveling up in each class influence your stats? IE, two people can be a Summoner but if one spent more time as an Archer and other spent more time as a Mage, one will be Faster, while the other will have higher magic dmg.
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Haha, sorry Mr @Xeru, I was having a hard time responding because of the volume of your post, but I can attack each number separately!

    1. You're on the right track, but it's not quite as mix-and-match as you describe from FFT. The current design is that Trait choices will come along throughout your Character's development experience. You'll make those choices, which will affect your combat prowess in different ways (both passively and reactionary, but not active). So you may choose "Brave" and receive a CON and HP buff to give a passive example. Or you might choose Lightning Reflexes which might give you a SPD buff + a reactionary riposte that damages the enemy after they hit you.

    Make sense? I suppose it's a simplified version of things you've seen before... 
    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    I'm ok with one at a time :)

    and yea that does make sense and ill save the how many traits question for later since its in my volume anyway :))


    feel free to poke me for questions or if you need me to write up more examples as it gets deeper, I can do this all day :smiley: 

    Onward!


  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Indeed, and I am very appreciative, @Xeru! There will be many needs for those examples as we get deeper into this little adventure of ours. Just wait till we exit pre-pro and I can share more of the gory design details! 

    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Ah, apologies. Pre-production. It's the time during the creation of the game where we do paper design, establish a look-and-feel for the game, hash out the base features and lay down the LORE...
    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    Oh right, makes sense. Mind me lol, I like to continuously put my brain to task and as you can tell, I have a plethora of experience and idea to contribute.

    Minus, you know, actual programming, drawing, drafting, and video making abilities :dizzy: 

    <----is a guy who has difficulties navigating RPG maker switches at times lol

    So I contribute details, and let the plug in play guys do the plug in playing lol

  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Indeed, @Xeru. I will hopefully have another Dev Update for you shortly, and we can dig into the details of that this week or next. We're so. very. close to a fully playable PvP situation that's integrated into Unreal (so it's pretty, rather than simply functional, which we already have).

    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    Noice :D i look forward to it and slowly dissecting my ideas n others to perfect the class system for us :) 


  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Excellent. @SingmeAsong is narrowing in on our base class specialties and what they do. We won't be ready to reveal them all right away (c'mon, you have to have something to look forward to), but we'll start to show the system soon, so you guys can dig in and give us some feedback. 

    Meanwhile, I can tell you that there's a Rogue specialty called the Shadow, which I'm very excited about. He/she will not be your typical thief...
    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    -waits with bated breath-

    feel free to comment on any of my numbers you are able to till then :p 
  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    well we're currently working with a Class + 3 branch system. But you can choose as you like from among the 3 branches or specialize completely. So while we won't have as many specialty names as you've outlined, we will have a TRUCKLOAD of choices. In fact, the specialty abilities and enhancements 1.0 draft is under review as we speak...
    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    But the names are cool -frowny face- lol


  • DarggieDarggie Posts: 125 Adventurer
    So can I make a Warrior, who can also cast teleport, while played a lute stealthed?

    Because, you know... That's totally what I want to do.
    They call me the Crier. No, I don't cry a lot. I deliver news you uncouth barbarian.
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    Darggie said:
    So can I make a Warrior, who can also cast teleport, while played a lute stealthed?

    Because, you know... That's totally what I want to do.
    So a better Yasuo basically?
  • DarggieDarggie Posts: 125 Adventurer
    Lol, I hadn't thought of it like that... But kind of. I had more in mind of Fallout 4's melee perk Blitz, on a stealth character. 

    Where you can V.A.T.S. someone from 15 feet away with melee, instantly blink (teleport) to them while striking, from stealth for sneak attack damage.
    They call me the Crier. No, I don't cry a lot. I deliver news you uncouth barbarian.
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    Indeedies :dizzy: 

    Last potential wrapup question for @TheWizard&nbsp;

    It's in some of my numbers but it covers the overall final question I have

    When you are in a character class archetype like, warrior. Are you just a warrior or, is there potential to have cross class mechanics of some sorts, either through maxing, special quests, items, or premiums, with limited slots? Call it a knack from my FFT days but, I always love the surprise element that cross classes can give and also, it might make people feel they aren't fully limited if they pick a class that every match they play warrior v warrior is just a battle of who has better equips. 
  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Excellent answer, and as you know, I'm a big FFT fan myself. And the answer is basically B-- you will have crossover opportunities on a few fronts:

    [] Each Class has a general and 3 specialty trees that you can climb-- or mix & match amongst. So a Warrior Build will have a ton of variety.
    [] Items are very very important in this game and will provide many of the crossover build opportunities you're talking about. For example, a certain sword may grant a Rogue-like Ability when you're a Warrior, or as a Warrior, you may wield a Staff with Fireball on it. So when you're entering into combat, you have to take in not only what your opponent is wearing, but what he's wielding. Lots of surprises there that we're experimenting with.
    [] What we're currently calling Traits will provide some surprising twists.
    [] Your Character will eventually be "Marked" by what seems like embers from a fire. These Marks will provide all sorts of effects that you can outfit to outwit (and smite) your opponent.
    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    Oooooo -dances-

    And I lied, one more question, the real one, as you mentioned marks and traits and whatnot.

    What about a potential for synergy that could lead to a hidden mechanic, for the sake of this conversation, let's call it "Transformation"

    Where certain Traits have certain hidden synergies with certain Marks or Certain Mythical Weapons and certain skills in each of the classes. And when a 'trigger' is activated (going below X% hp, getting poisoned, X turns, etc etc) Transformation activates and for limited time, a limited scenario occurs depending on the transformation. It would be stat boost, it could be a passive skill like double strike, it could be gain a new set of skills that are boosted versions of your current skills and of course, your avatar gets cool new aura, maybe new ha -gets shot-

    Short end of the story, the set Transformation will depend on the synergy you activate. Weapon, Armor, or other gearTrait, Mark, Skill. 

    Potential thought. If you further unlock a Full Transformation of one whole link: IE say your Mage's Blood Boil need's Archmage's Staff, Archmage's robes, Mark of the Archmage, and Coagulation 4. Having all of these at the same time could unlock a hidden TRUE TRANSFORMATION of all these + additional Finisher skill X

    Also the potential to forge visible to the owner Transformation pins onto gear to potentially create their own synergies.

    As a reward system for hardcore grinders of forging or looting :)
  • TheWizardTheWizard Posts: 838 Wizard
    Ah yes, we do actually have some Traits and Marks that do just as you say (with the exception of the "Full Transformatio" idea). We're working on reactionary abilities-- things like the scenarios you outlined. Where, for example, your Character goes below 25% HP and a Berzerk is triggered (yes, I like to use the old arcade spelling-- man, I loved that game), and you have all sorts of interesting effects, both good and bad. Same thing with some Mage Marks...

    So you're on to something there! And I'll share the exact details of some of those as the ruleset comes together.
    TheWizard
    I'll SMITE you
  • XeruXeru Posts: 93 Adventurer
    Oooo, exciting :)

    What of the potential to expand Marks and Traits onto Gear slots, both temporary or learnable(With learnable having big requirements) And maybe with that a potential to learn Exotic Traits that aren't just class Traits but are Gear or Item or Special Traits/Marks

    Not that only those particular ones is great but, I don't want those grubby IV/EV types to exploit a Skill System where every Skill is visible and available so it lets them have too much information prefight to spam. Yes it's part of strategy but I feel there is some flair to having a few Hidden Tricks or Traits or Skills up your sleeve that your opponent cannot predict and automatically in the 'Arena' go "I'm Fighting a lvl 20 Warrior who wasn't learned bloodlust yet, so I'm going to stack armor and spam poison cause he can't heal' 

    I also think the surprise element of "This Sword lets me learn a new skill, cool!" And even though the amount of effort to learn that skill/trait will be redic, it will get them excited. 

    For while equipped skills, it would be like 'has x% chance to cast Bloodboil with basic attack." or "While worn, Shield casts Barrier." etc etc.

    Combine this with the ability to forge Gear and potential Skill and Trait slots and say, use Alchemy to create Skill/Trait Scroll, and we have a mini system for getting things interested


    And yes @TheWizard, before you say it, I will be EoE's resident "Let's do max customization of everything at all times because we can" creative guy lol

    I'm just here to throw every idea that comes to mind from my vault of creativity.

    You be sure to catch the good ones ;)
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